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Recently, I conducted a little marketing research about what’s holding women in business back from being productive. One of the most popular responses? “I’m drowning in client work and don’t have time to work on my own business.” If this sounds like you, you’re not alone! I invited Colie James to the podcast this week to share how to transform your backend client processes to help you reclaim your time and sanity while also taking advantage of hidden money making opportunities in your client workflows. This conversation is filled with actionable strategies for creating sustainable client workflows, selecting the right CRM, and how to not feel annoying when you follow up with potential clients. If you’re a service provider, this episode is packed with expert advice to help you save time on client work, build workflows that are easy to maintain, and feel confident about the systems running your business.
If you’ve ever wondered where to start with automating your client workflows or how to take the stress out of client management, this episode is for you. Tune into this conversation with Colie to learn how simple tweaks to your workflows can unlock major growth while giving you more time to focus on what matters most.

Key Takeaways from this Episode
- How to streamline your client workflows to save time, reduce stress, and boost profitability
- The Magic Email: A follow-up strategy that helps you get clarity and closure with clients.
- The four essential parts of a client workflow and why you need them
- Why outlining your workflows on paper is the first step before choosing a CRM
Links and Resources Mentioned in This Episode
- Free Workflow and Automation Guide
- Follow Up Email Examples
- The Magic Email
- CRMs discussed: Dubsado, HoneyBook, Tave
- Task Management Software Discussed: Airtable, ClickUp
- Meditations for Mortals by Oliver Burkeman
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Click here to read the full episode transcript!
Colie James: [00:00:00] I honestly think that business owners should stop worrying about what they think and do things for yourself. So like if you want to take it back to the follow up emails, like don’t not send emails because you’re afraid of how the person is going to react. You need to do what’s in your best interest.
And if that includes making some automated follow up emails so that you can remember to do it, you know, using a robot and not physically have to. Check it off of a list, then that’s what you need to do because your people are going to find you. And so if you make decisions that are rooted in what you need, everything else will fall into place.
Welcome to the business edit podcast, a podcast about redefining productivity for the modern woman in business and finding ways to work smarter, not harder in business and life. I’m your host, Jade Boyd, an MBA business minimalist and productivity coach. I help overwhelmed business owners simplify and scale their service based businesses by doing less but better.
[00:01:00] I help my clients create business minimalist strategies and systems that allow them to pursue ambitious goals while working at a human pace. On this. podcast. We’ll explore simple ways to grow your business with a life first approach. If you’re ready to scale your business, bring order to chaos, ditch the busy work and spend more time living your life than managing your life.
You’ve come to the right place. Welcome to the business edit podcast.
Jade Boyd: Welcome to the podcast, Collie.
Colie James: Hey, Jade. Thank you so much for having me.
Jade Boyd: Yeah, I started this by saying long time no see, because we were just on Zoom last week. So tell me a little bit more. I feel like most people listening have already heard of you because you were the Dibsado and Workflow Queen. And I just
feel like I see you everywhere.
And it’s surprising to me that it’s, it’s took so long for us to actually meet. You know, virtually face to face, but for those who have never heard of you or are not familiar with what you do, I would love for you to introduce yourself and just give a little bit of a backstory about how you got [00:02:00] into the work that you’re doing today and what you do.
Colie James: right. So, hey, everyone. I’m Collie James. I am a family filmmaker and photographer turned client experience and system strategist. I’m based right outside of Boulder, Colorado, and I ran my photography business very successfully for years, even in the beginning when I had no idea what a CRM was. But I was like, there has to be a different way.
Then going into all of these different Applications to find out if I sent an email to my client, did they sign the contract? Like, how much did they pay me? Like, all of, all of my client data was everywhere. And so, I think it was 2015, I discovered what a CRM was. And while I have done just a little bit of CRM hopping, once I discovered what it was, I was like, oh no, this is where it’s at.
But it also took me another five years. to actually create an offer in my business around systems and CRMs. I have [00:03:00] been coaching other photographers since the very first year of my business, which, hey, no judging, guys. I was a professor before I did this, so teaching is definitely in my blood. But it took me so long to realize that while I was coaching all of my fellow documentary family photographers in how to run a sustainable and profitable business, That that one piece that I was teaching them about creating sustainable systems on the back end of their business was something that I could teach to people who weren’t coming to me to learn how to build a documentary family photography business.
So that’s my migration from like photographer into the systems world.
Jade Boyd: Why do you think that it took five years? Is it something that you were thinking about that whole
time, but we’re just like afraid to jump in or it was just one moment. It clicked.
Colie James: no, I definitely don’t have that problem. I’m a jump first, think later. Well, actually that’s not, that’s not true. I’m very analytical, but I don’t have a problem with like decision paralysis. Like when I decide I’m going to try [00:04:00] something, I just do it. But it was the pandemic. Cause hello, didn’t all of us like rethink our lives during the pandemic, but it was summer of 2020 and my bestie Anami Tonkin has a podcast.
This can’t be that hard. And she invited me to do two episodes in a row. The first episode, I was the CRM expert. I was gonna be talking to her audience, which is full of photographers, about the value of CRMs. And then for the second episode, I hosted a roundtable where I had photographers who all had different CRMs so that we could talk about the benefits of Dov Sato versus HoneyBook versus Seventeen Hats versus Tave.
And right after Annamie and I stopped recording that first episode, I said, okay, that’s my next course. Like, I don’t know if the questions that she asked me, I had never considered teaching people’s systems in a separate course. But it was like the moment that she interviewed me, I was like, why have I never thought about creating a course about this before?[00:05:00]
And it almost came simultaneously. And I don’t know that this would have happened if it wasn’t 2020 in the middle, or I should say at the beginning of the pandemic. But I started off, um, creating the course and I launched it on Black Friday. But by the time I actually gave the course to the people who pre purchased in January, I was already doing full setups for other people.
Because there were a couple people that were like, Oh, I mean, your course sounds fabulous, but can I just pay you to do it? And I was like, Yes, you can. That would be great. So like my entire system side of my business just kind of exploded.
in January of 2021.
Jade Boyd: maybe hindsight is just 2020, but it makes a lot of sense to me why that took off so quickly. I even at the end of last year, did some marketing research around like productivity and what people’s struggles were from like a business perspective and being able to be productive and, you know, move their business forward. And one of the number one things people said is like, I’m just constantly drawn in and client work. I don’t have time to do anything else because I’m [00:06:00] always working on client work. And part of that is. Because there’s no processes right like there’s lots of stuff that goes into drowning in client work, but having a system for managing Client processes and automating as much as possible is a huge part of that. And so digging into this, being that you spend so much time thinking about client workflows for somebody who has no processes, no systems, where do they even start? How do we want to think about client workflows?
Colie James: I want you to not think about a piece of software. I mean, everyone is always like, really? I’m like, yes, your processes have nothing to do with whether or not you choose Dubsado or HoneyBook or something else. You literally need to get a piece of paper and think about when someone lands on your website.
And they inquire about your services, hopefully using some kind of contact form and not still sending you random emails or DMS on Instagram. But what do you want to happen next? It’s literally asking yourself every time you write something [00:07:00] down. Okay. And what happens next? So for me, it’s, I want you to schedule a consultation call.
Okay, well, what happens next? Well, when we get on the call, I’m going to decide we’re a good fit or we’re not a good fit. So then, if we’re a good fit, I’m going to send you an offer. Okay, what happens next? Like, just keep on asking yourself that question. Keep writing down every thought that you have.
Because that’s your process. You have a process, regardless how you automate it, inside of a piece of software. That’s in the distance. You have to, you have to get clear on what interactions you want to have with your leads and your clients before you really sit down to map it out inside of a piece of software.
Jade Boyd: Do you suggest people think about their workflow before they start working with clients? I know this is kind of like a chicken or the egg scenario, but do you have to try this first before you write it down? Or do you say like, map it out first, at least guess?
Colie James: I honestly believe that if you Google and you don’t find information from me that I’m doing [00:08:00] something wrong, I think that I have plenty of free resources, blog posts, video trainings, absolutely for free. That you can watch and it will give you an idea of what I think you should be doing as a photographer.
And most of those things translate to any creative service provider, copywriter, website designer, whatever you are. Basically, it’s, I think the question that I get asked more often is, I don’t have a lot of clients yet, do I need a CRM? To which I always answer, yes. Like the more work that you can do upfront to get your processes set and to get them automated is going to help you.
When whatever marketing activities you are doing, bring the snowball effect of the leads that you are fingers crossed praying for every single day, because I think that’s what happened to a lot of people. They put the workflows off, they put the processes off until they get clients and then they’re drowning in clients and there is no time to figure it out.
So I think that regardless of what stage of business you’re in. [00:09:00] Like, in the next week, everybody can do something to improve their processes and their workflows, whether you have lots of clients or you are at the very beginning of your business. And it’s okay if you don’t know what you know, because if you’ve been in business for 10 years, and you think that you have what your client processes should be dialed down, I guarantee you, I could probably give you some suggestions of things you haven’t thought about.
I also guarantee you that after using your initial processes for six months or a year, you will Everybody is likely to be ready to improve it because systems are not something that you write it down, you automate it, and then it’s going to work forever. Your business changes, you change, your systems should change as well.
Jade Boyd: So you talk about, um, common mistakes that people make when setting up their client workflows. And one of the things that I’ve seen you point out is that you’re just having one workflow for the entire service instead of splitting it up into different parts. And I would love for you to explain how you break down client workflows so it doesn’t seem like [00:10:00] this huge, intimidating, long process and just
Colie James: Mm hmm.
Jade Boyd: those little chunks.
Colie James: So part of this is actually driven by software. So I am going to put this one caveat on here. The reason that I teach people to do this is specifically in Dubsado. If you create everything as one big workflow, Your forms are automatically loaded to a client’s project the moment that the workflow starts, and I have come across many photographers who have people who inquire about service one, but then you talk to them or you read their email, and you’re like, no, no, no.
You don’t need service one, you need service two. But the problem is, if you have it as one very long workflow, Dubsado has already loaded the proposal related to service one, the questionnaire related to service one. And so then you got to do a lot of cleanup in order to get ready to offer them service one.
So I’m going to tell you now why I break it up. But like, this was the beginning of my thinking of, I don’t want my CRM to do a lot of work [00:11:00] before I have figured out what the person actually needs. So. I don’t recommend that anybody have really long workflows because you’re also going to get a lot of leads that don’t turn into clients.
And you don’t want all of these forms and these invoices created inside your CRM that you’re never going to use. So
Jade Boyd: I remember, just a little side note, I remember when I first set up Dubsado, I saw it shows you how much is left in your open invoices, and I was like, wow, I have like 30, 000 of open invoices, but it was just, you know, invoices that were created
from inquiries. Not all of them had actually booked, but I was so confused by the way that the software worked and why that was happening.
So for any photographer who’s getting into a software, like you really do have to understand how it
works, but keep going.
Colie James: Yeah. So the way that I have it broken down is. Every time that there’s a decision to be made, I want it to be a separate workflow. And so the four workflows that I think every photographer and creative need are an inquiry workflow, a booking workflow, an [00:12:00] onboarding workflow, and then an offboarding workflow.
And each of those four workflows only has one goal. Like I’m a big, I want every workflow to just have one purpose and one purpose only. So your inquiry workflow Is to qualify your leads. So in other words, someone raises their hand, they fill out your contact form and they say, hey, I’m interested in your service.
Well, you have to figure out if they’re a good fit now. You can do a consultation call. If you are someone who likes to talk to everybody, you can just read the form that they filled out on your website. You can send them an email to clarify. I mean, there’s a lot of things that you can do, but that first workflow is only to qualify them.
Now, if they’re a qualified lead, then you push them to your booking process. And again, I specifically want your booking process to be separate. So that when you send them the offer, the first time it is the right offer. It is the one that you have decided that they are a best fit for. So that ends up [00:13:00] creating emails that are related to that specific offer, the proposal that’s related to that specific offer.
And then where I feel like a lot of people leave money on the table. is not following up with people who have ghosted you.
Sometimes, people ghost you because they don’t want to work with you. Point blank. That is true. I would argue that a majority of the time it’s because people are busy and they have lives and hiring you is sometimes not their number one priority but it doesn’t mean that it’s not a priority.
So automatic follow ups in that second phase, that second workflow are super important. And I love when people have Um, CRMs that will do it for you, because I don’t want you to have to remember to send that, Hey, I’m still here. Do you want a book? Hey, I’m still here. Do you want a book? You can have that process do it for you.
And then, once someone has booked, you often need to gather information from them. Now, it could be that you need to send a certain set of people these [00:14:00] questionnaires, or another set of people these questionnaires. That’s why I want your onboarding process to be its own workflow, so that everything in there is specific about preparing them for your service.
And for some of us photographers, We’re going to have more than one service that needs to have a workflow in that onboarding part. Specifically, if I, in my case, I do maternity and newborn sessions, and those are often the exact same person. But I have a process for the maternity session, I have a process for the newborn session, and sometimes I can’t just send one workflow for both of those.
And then, you know, you’ve prepared them, you’ve had this amazing service. When it comes to the offboarding, which is what I actually call it in the business world, But for us photographers, it would be like the delivery portion. Like you’re going to get your client’s photos ready. You still should be doing other stuff.
This is like the dead zone. I feel like so many photographers see their clients on the session day, and then your, your editing window [00:15:00] is let’s say four weeks and you do nothing in that four weeks, but your client is like so excited to get their stuff. So I recommend that you send emails during that period.
And what better way to do that than in an automated workflow.
Jade Boyd: I think offboarding across the board on this podcast, we have service providers across the table, like in many different fields. But I do feel like offboarding is sort of the one that gets forgotten. And it’s true for any client and a lot of service providers do ongoing retainer work. And even to think for the offboarding process and that, even if it’s not the right time for them to continue right now, who’s to say they won’t come back in the future and kind of tying that up all up with a bow
is the difference between, you know, trading time for money. And then creating a great client experience that makes people want to come back and talk about you.
Colie James: Yeah. And there’s two money making, well, actually, let me take that back. There’s three money making opportunities inside of that off boarding workflow that a lot of people don’t consider. First, it’s asking for referrals. [00:16:00] Yes, your current clients can bring you money by bringing you their friends that need your same service, but a lot of them won’t just do it off the cuff.
You should Tell them that you loved working with them. You should tell them that if anybody is in need of your service, if they could recommend you, you would really appreciate it because your business survives on referrals. Yes, you have to like, tell people that. The second thing is, again, they might not be ready to immediately hire you for additional retainer work, but you definitely want to be first, you know, top of mind when they need your service again.
Or some people literally need to be told how you can help them now that this first service is complete. Because a lot of people may think you only do service one and they don’t know that you do service two, three, and four specifically created for people like them that have kind of gotten service number one out of the way.
And then the third way that you can get money making activities out of your off boarding is [00:17:00] simply asking people for their testimonials. Their feedback, because you can use that in your marketing efforts to get more people that are not necessarily referrals from that initial client.
Jade Boyd: Yeah. Three really easy asks, really underutilized things that it’s like, okay, if you want to make one tiny change
and get great results without having to waste time on marketing. right
There in your client process. And there’s so many different, not just in the offboarding, but there’s so many other places within the client experience that lead to more money in terms of, like you said, not following up with people who are willing
to pay you and just needed that one extra email to book a service or. Like you said, forgetting about people and seeing all of your leads. And if they’re not booking and you don’t have a CRM, like you go stain them
because you’re busy, um, or increasing conversion rates because they can see that you’re an actual, like real business owner, and they’re going to have a great experience because you have your crap together and you
haven’t waited four weeks to get back to them.
Like there’s so many ways that investing in this part of your business [00:18:00] increases your profit.
Colie James: I will say, I believe it was 2015 and this is for the photography side of my business, not the system side. But I had someone, she was actually a student in my, How to build your documentary family photography business. She was a student, and she had inquired with me about a day in the life session in Philadelphia.
And she inquired, and I believe we went back a little bit, and then she kind of ghosted me. And then like, I think it was like a month later, I sent her a little follow up. Not really pushing, just being like, hey, is this still on your radar? If you’ve changed your mind, let me know. I think I ended up following up two or three times.
But when I came to the session, it turns out when I flew to Philadelphia, turns out she was just like a really busy mom and it just kept falling off her plate. And she actually thanked me when I was in her house and she’s like, I just want to say I am so grateful that you continued to follow up because I probably wouldn’t have pulled the trigger.
And now that you are here and I am finally going to have photos where, you know, they’re the kind of [00:19:00] photos that I want and I’m going to be in them and I’m going to be in focus and it’s my real life. She’s like, I’m so excited. So every time I think about sending a follow up email, I think about her. And I think about how grateful she was that I kept following up.
Because again, just because someone doesn’t answer your email, it doesn’t mean that it’s a no. It could just be a, they got busy and they need a gentle reminder that they were interested in your service in the first place.
Jade Boyd: For the service provider who does really struggle with feeling annoying and doesn’t have an experience like that to lean on, I’m like, oh, yeah, people want to hear from me, I need to follow up, right? If they don’t have that personal experience and really struggle with feeling like they’re being annoying, what would you recommend for a follow up policy in terms of like timing, how many times?
Colie James: So it’s so funny because I think automating the process gets rid of your feelings of being annoying. If the system is doing it, the system is doing it. And if you want to think about it as like a credit card reminder payment, [00:20:00] I mean, think about it. All of my credit cards are on auto pay, guys. They are all on auto pay for the minimum.
Why? Because I’m busy. And if I Had to sit down and actually pay my bills every month. Oh, I would get late fees up the wazoo. So all of those are set to be like minimums, but then I go in when I, you know, have the time when I think about it and like pay the credit card off or pay huge chunks of it off.
But like, I think of those credit card reminders as like a service to me. Like they’re trying to make sure that I don’t miss my payment. And get my credit dinged or any of those things. So if you kind of think of what you’re doing in a positive way, that will help you. Again, automating it as well. Now, in terms of a timeline, I’m kind of pushy.
And the funny thing is, this week I actually sent somebody, I mean, she said she was ready to go. I sent her the proposal five days later. And I think one prompt, she still hadn’t filled it out. So I sent her an email that said, listen, It makes me very nervous to have open proposals out because if I overbook, it’s going to be on me.
I said, so I’m closing your [00:21:00] inquiry when you are ready for this service, please, you know, because technically that’s my second follow up. Um, but I tend to do it all within five days and that’s because I just. For my mental health, I cannot let people linger with open proposals inside of my business. But, if most of my clients are not like that, and when I say clients, I mean photographers.
Most of my photographers let leads stay in their system anywhere between 14 to 21 days. So, 2 to 3 weeks. So, if you want to space out your reminders, do that. I also feel like you should consider the urgency in their request. If it’s a newborn client, And they’re having a baby in three weeks. Oh, I’m going to probably email twice and call.
Because, you know, they have a lot of things on their mind. They know they want newborn photos. And they’re probably just forgetting to, you know, close the deal. But it’s really whatever you feel comfortable with. But I promise that if you just automate one to sound like a credit card reminder two [00:22:00] days after you send the initial offer that just says, Hey, I sent over that proposal two days ago.
Just checking in to make sure it hit your inbox. If it didn’t, please let me know and I’ll send it again. Or you can send another link in that email. That is going to help you get over the hump of feeling like you’re annoying.
Jade Boyd: Mm hmm. I love that. Automating it so you don’t give yourself the chance to be like, uh, maybe I won’t or maybe I’ll just give them another day. I feel like that’s the people pleaser’s dilemma.
Colie James: It is, and I feel like often we talk ourselves out of doing things that would probably benefit us as well as our clients just because we don’t want to be annoying or we’re afraid of hearing a no. Guys, I literally love to hear no. Like if you tell me no, I’m like, good. I can archive your project and I never have to think about you again.
You have no idea how much freedom comes from somebody giving you closure. You don’t have to worry that, you know, your email got lost in their box. You don’t have to worry that they think that you ghosted them and not the [00:23:00] other way around. Like there’s a lot of, I get, I get very calm when people tell me, no, I’m like, good.
I wasn’t a good fit archive and move on. Because the truth is if someone doesn’t book you, someone else is going to book you soon.
Like, what do they say when a, when a window closes, a door opens, or whatever the opposite of that is. So, if you just consider it that. It will really help you get a different mindset when it comes to your client experience.
Jade Boyd: Yeah, I was literally just reading about this. Um, have you ever heard of Oliver Berkman?
I wonder if I even mentioned him last week. He writes about time management, but kind of from a Like, we’re all gonna die someday and have limited capacity,
like, uh, let’s be real about how much we can actually accomplish,
Colie James: Mm hmm.
Jade Boyd: of perspective. But he just came out with a book called Meditations for Mortals, and his most recent chapter that I read was talking about how if you’re gonna tell somebody no, tell them no immediately. Like, don’t, don’t waffle around on it. Like, let’s make clear decisions on what our capacity is, and if it’s a no, don’t say [00:24:00] yes, because that’s awful.
Like, don’t say,
yeah, I’m gonna book you, and then not book. And don’t. You know, wait 48 hours just stressing about telling somebody no because you think that they’re not going to like you or something like
that. Like, kind of playing into the mental games. And so, you’re right, it is helpful to have a no, because if it’s a no, it was going to be a no whether they followed up immediately or a week from now, so at least you have the decision and you’re not in that, like, purgatory phase.
Colie James: Have you heard of the magic email?
Jade Boyd: No.
Colie James: Okay. So when you asked me about follow ups, I do, and I have a blog post. I’m going to share it with you so that you can put it in the show notes.
Talks about three follow up emails that I feel like every person who is doing service offers should do. I give timelines, but I tell you that it’s flexible.
The third email, I didn’t write, and I got the concept from someone else. His, his name is Kai Davis, and it’s called the Magic Email, literally. It has a whole website dedicated to it. But Jade, it is borderline rude. And I say this, and when I read the email to people, they’re like, oh, I could never send that.
I said, it’s okay, I, I’d dress it up just [00:25:00] a tiny bit, but you do want to keep the curtness in it. It basically says, I haven’t heard back, your priorities must have changed, basically best wishes. It is short and to the point, and when people are like, oh my gosh, when you send that, do you actually get people that come back and book?
I’m like, every once in a while, I’m like, but do you know what I really get? I really get closure. When people read that, no one wants to be rude. So when they read that, they’re like, Oh, I should really just tell her that I’ve hired someone else. Or I should really tell her that, you know, my priorities have changed and now we’re buying a house and I don’t have the money for this.
Like people don’t want to seem rude. And if you send that email, they feel like they have been rude to you and they feel compelled to tell you that they are no longer interested. And again, I really value closure. I want people to tell me now, tell me no all day and I’m good. Now. I don’t send that email like that.
I add two things that I’m going to tell you now. The first one is I say, [00:26:00] you know, I give them till the end of the day. I said, this is going to automatically archive at the end of the day, and then I say, if you change your mind about booking with me in the future, please contact me to get updated availability And pricing.
So I’m slipping it in that just because I’m available today doesn’t mean I’ll be available next week. Just because the price is 2k today doesn’t mean it’s going to be 2k next week. I like to just make sure that I am giving people my boundaries. Yes, I gave you all of this information for my availability and my price now and in the future that may change.
So that’s the little bit that I add in. I have also played around with writing a more Customer centric email, if you will, like it talks about. It’s more like a case study. It’s like when Jade hired me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I’ve played around with putting the magic email part in the P. S. P. S. I don’t want this to be awkward.
If you are no longer interested in my services, [00:27:00] please let me know so that I can turn Well, actually, so that I can archive your project and no additional emails will come to you. Because again, then it sounds like I’m doing you a favor. You don’t want to hear from me anymore. All you got to do is tell me you’re not interested.
I’ll turn off all the emails. You’ll never hear from me again. So, those are my perspectives on follow up emails.
Jade Boyd: That is so, so helpful. And it’s also, to me, kind of a breath of fresh air to hear that. It reminds me of when I was working a full time job. I had a co worker who would write the lengthiest, like, nicest emails. And then I would respond like, you know, got it, thanks, and feel so bad. But who has the time to write an email that long?
And I think about that all the time. And I still feel like I’m pretty hurt and to the point in my emails and don’t go above and beyond to like, you know, Flourish my paragraphs and
like overly make them like me or tell them how, you know, I’m very short because who has time to be in their inbox [00:28:00] that amount of time.
So not only automating it, but giving people permission that it’s okay to be to the point. And if they
know you, if they’ve ever seen you face to face, they’ll know that you’re friendly and that you’re not a rude person, right? Some
part of you has to lean on your personal brand for that, especially as a service provider. So I love that. And it makes me feel. Like I have permission to continue being the way that I am.
Colie James: And it gives that client, it gives that lead permission to tell you, no, I am no longer interested.
Because again, just like you don’t want to seem annoying, those people don’t want to seem rude. So if you’re more expensive than they expected, they really don’t want to tell you, well, wow, that was way more. I mean, You know, some people do, but in general, people don’t want to be rude.
And sometimes they think that just not responding and not telling you what they’re really thinking is being kind. They think that it’s not being rude versus if you just give them permission. I mean, I really wish that CR, that some CRMs [00:29:00] would enable something where on the proposal, someone can decline. I would kill for a decline button.
Just click that you decline and it can automatically, you know, archive the project. I mean, I, I tell you what, I am very firmly in the two CRMs that I use, but if anybody offered that and it was just as beautiful as like Dubsado or HoneyBook, I mean, I would jump on that. And I’ve told, of course, both of them that I want that feature.
Jade Boyd: speaking of CRMs. So I used to be a Dubsado girl when I was a photographer, but now I manage everything in ClickUp and kind of piecemeal my workflow to make it custom. And you mentioned, think about your workflow first and then let’s talk about CRMs. And so besides Dubsado and HoneyBook, I know that you’re a huge fan of Airtable.
And so I would love to hear your perspective. How do you go from. Outlining the workflow, then to choosing a software, and why specifically do you love the software that you use?
Colie James: So, keeping in mind that most of my clients are photographers, [00:30:00] I am very big on when you ask someone to pay you thousands of dollars for art, you should probably show them the art when you ask them for the money. And so, my entire rationale of getting photographers To use Dubsado or HoneyBook is that when you ask them to pay you thousands of dollars, you can have images on the page.
You can have films if you’re a filmmaker. That is literally the reason that I tell people to get Dubsado and HoneyBook. It is what sets them apart. Personally, in terms of automations, Tave was top tier. I loved Tave. I may have cried when I left them. The first time that I ever moved somebody from Tave into Dubsado and I downloaded their CSV, which had like all of their client information and the lifetime value of each one of their clients.
I literally cried again. Like I do miss Tave, but Tave is not as beautiful as Dubsado. or HoneyBook, and I really feel that when I was trying to sell films, me being able to put the films in the [00:31:00] proposal is what got people to pay me the extra money for the films. So it worked for me. Now, in terms of using something like ClickUp or Airtable, here’s my thing about Airtable, not necessarily ClickUp.
You can’t get paid in Airtable. You can’t get assigned. Contract and Airtable. So as long as you are doing a service where you need to get a signed contract, and you may or may not be doing some kind of payment plan, I think that you should stick with a CRM for that part, even if that’s all you do. Those CRMs that I mentioned are 40 bucks a month.
It is well worth 40 to create a five minute booking process that gets people to pick their services, sign the contract, and pay you the money in less than five minutes. But I could just as easily. Run my entire business through Airtable with personalized emails and like, you know, workflows that would be amazing outside of using Dubsado or HoneyBook or something like 17 hats or any of those things, I really feel like those [00:32:00] can be considered booking tools now, if you are more inclined to use something like ClickUp or Airtable on the back end to manage your processes and your workflows.
Jade Boyd: So what should people be considering when they are looking at CRMs versus using something like ClickUp or Airtable. Because I know for me, the only reason that I’m able to use ClickUp is one, because I have a bunch of other software and
it’s all connected on the back end. It’s not the most simple thing for somebody who doesn’t have time. And also, I was not willing to budge. I’m like, I want my workflow. Uh, and as you can see we, we put them
on the back of the flow to work exactly like this, kind of brute force my way into it, which I would not recommend for most business owners. But what are some of the things that you think that service provider outside of photographers should be considering across the board when they’re thinking about CRMs?
Colie James: So I really think that people should stick to a CRM. I think that using ClickUp for you or using Airtable for me, that is really only appropriate when you have your processes down, when you are able to work and be flexible and [00:33:00] like be able to work in a tool that’s really not designed for that, because those are not workflow tools.
They are task tools. They are databases. We make them what we want, um, But that is not what they were designed to do. So there’s nowhere that you can actually go and like, get that customized help that you can, if you went to Dubsado or HoneyBook’s customer service, because those tools are meant in order to run a client experience from beginning to end.
But in terms of what you should look for when you are looking for a CRM, I want everyone to kind of stay away from the cheap plans or the cheap CRMs. And here’s why. Even if you are brand new to like automations and workflows, I feel like once someone jumps in, they outgrow those cheaper versions very quickly.
Like, and it, it is not for the faint of heart to go from one CRM to the next. Even if you are setting up your own CRM, that is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to set it up. And so if you turn [00:34:00] around and you go to a different CRM the next year, I mean, you’re gonna waste all of that time equity again. Now, if you’re, you know, if you’re paying somebody like me, that would be even more painful.
Like, you pay thousands of dollars, and then you do it again because you want to change. So, I want you to pick a CRM for the future. And so, there are a lot of photographer CRMs. I’m not gonna name them because most people can go on my blog and figure out which ones I hate. But if it’s in the range of like 20 a month, that is not for you.
It might work for you right now, but it is not going to work for you as your business grows. So I want you to look to see, first of all, what kind of flexibility it has. Um, when someone clicks something on a contact form, does it have the ability to send? Automated lead responses, depending on what they chose some CRMs do it.
Others don’t. I also want you to look at the workflows to see how robust they are. Some of them. I mean, honey book included was very linear. [00:35:00] It’s like you could you only had certain choices. And basically you chose to use this part or you didn’t,
and there wasn’t a lot of flexibility. So I also encourage people to choose one that has workflows that can work for like your business as it scales and as your services increase.
Um, but those are like my main things. And then of course, um, if you are, for example, using Xero as your accounting software, you probably want to find a CRM that has an integration with Xero. I mean, almost all of them have it for QuickBooks, so that’s not really a thing. It’s if you’re using something that’s like a little more off book.
Um, I mean, honestly, the only other thing that I will say is I don’t want anybody to choose a CRM because I told you which one to pick or because your business coach told you which one to pick. It is very much like a camera for those of us that are photographers. I don’t really know that there’s an equivalent for someone else, but you have to get in the software and you have to like it.
You [00:36:00] have to feel comfortable in the interface and see where everything is. Like, if you’re not, you are going to loathe going into your CRM and your CRM is the one place that you should not loathe going into on a daily basis. Like, you should love going in there.
Jade Boyd: Well, for me, I’m going to say the first thing you should do is go listen to Colie’s podcast because you’ve broken everything down for us in way more in depth on your podcast and on your blog too, I’m sure. So closing out this episode, I would love to know one question that I love closing with is what is one thing you think business owners can stop doing this year?
Colie James: I honestly think that business owners should stop worrying about what they think and do things for yourself. So like if you want to take it back to the follow up emails, like don’t not send emails because you’re afraid of how the person is going to react. You need to do what’s in your best interest.
And if that includes making some automated follow up emails so that you can remember to do it, you know, [00:37:00] using a robot and not physically have to. Check it off of a list, then that’s what you need to do because your people are going to find you. And so if you make decisions that are rooted in what you need, everything else will fall into place.
Jade Boyd: I love that. And I feel like you so naturally come off as this person who’s very confident and like telling it like it is, I’m just going to be who I am. Has it always been like that for
you as a business owner?
Colie James: I’m a Leo. Yes.
I mean, I also think that part of it was, I mean, I was a college professor for 10 years. And so in my classroom, it really was take it or leave it. If I’m not what you want, you can go drop my class and go pick up someone else’s class. That’s always been my personality, but I also coach a lot of people who are not like me.
And I’m, I’m thinking of Meg. Hello, Meg. If you’re going to listen to this episode, um, I do feel like I’m constantly having to give other people, the confidence. To do that, like, yes, I want you to call them, honey. They gave you a phone number for a reason. Just call them [00:38:00] like those kinds of things. I can give you permission to do.
I can tell you that it’s okay. I can give you the confidence. And then on the back end, when everything works out, you’re like, Oh, that wasn’t so bad and you’ll be okay doing it all on your own the next time and the next time. So, I mean, sometimes I just feel like you need somebody to tell you. It’s okay for you to think about yourself.
It’s okay for you to do this and then you’ll, you’ll be better at it next time.
Jade Boyd: Yeah. I love that. And also, I feel like, personally, it took me quite a long time to realize that in business, it only hurts you to act like somebody that you’re not or like try to do what you should be doing. It’s exhausting. And so, giving people permission, even within this conversation, to just like be yourself. Say it how you want to say it. Do what’s best for your business. I mean, don’t be an a hole about it, but you know, you’re not going to anyway, if you’re worrying about it, then you’re not going to come off like that. So I love it. That is the perfect place to end. So where can listeners find you after the [00:39:00] show so that they can finally put all of this into practice?
Colie James: All right. You can find me on my website. It’s Collie, James. com. And I know we talked a lot about workflows. I do have a freebie that lays out the four workflows and tells you what to put in each of them. If you feel like you want a checklist that you can check off the boxes and that’s at Collie, James. com slash workflows.
Jade Boyd: Perfect. We will link all of that up in the show notes. So thank you so much again, Coley, for being here. This was great.
Colie James: Thank you for having me, Jade.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the business edit podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, I’d be so grateful if you take a screenshot and share it on Instagram, tagging me at jadeboyd. co. I’m on a mission to empower a new generation of women to become the type. Of wives, moms, and business owners that they’ve always wanted to be because empowered women change their families and communities for the better, and this is how we’ll change the world.
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Action does. I’ll see you next time on The Business Edit podcast.
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