Jade Boyd: I think that it’s important to make space for that in the traditional sense where you set time aside, where you are like journaling through or thinking through questions where you know that you have a big decision, and you’re making the space to process that. But I also think that there’s this level of self awareness that just can’t be scheduled into your calendar once a month or once a week, there’s a level of just like slowing down and noticing the small things in your life too, that gives you a lot of clarity.

I recently sat down with my friend, Haley Thomas on the Passion Pursuit Podcast. And we talked to all things clarity and how to make decisions when you feel like you’re overthinking things and spending too much time in that period of overanalyzing all of your choices and just staying stuck, which is something that I am very familiar with as an Enneagram one and a perfectionist and somebody who loves data.

It’s a cycle that I found myself caught in, in many different seasons in my business. And this has been one of my favorite interviews that I’ve done on somebody else’s podcast. We went into it without a clear, structure or plan or a set of questions or anything. We just had a conversation about what it looks like to find clarity when you’re in one of those really tough seasons.

And the format of this podcast, obviously this is an episode that is going to be replayed a conversation that I had with Haley for her podcast. And you’re going to see a few more episodes like this, this fall, because I’m bringing some of my favorite conversations that I’ve had on other people’s podcasts to The Business Edit Podcast so that you guys can get that special content and a little taste of the, the fun things that I’m able to talk about when I do interview on other people’s podcasts.

It’s also been a fun way for me to repurpose content that I have already recorded and batch out content for this podcast so that I can extend my maternity leave as far as possible into the fall and batch out as many podcast episodes as I possibly can. So again, you’re going to see a few interviews this fall sprinkled in, in this type of format, and I hope you enjoy it.

Definitely reach out and let me know if this is a format that you enjoy on the podcast. You can find me on Instagram at jadeboyd.co and I would love to know what you take away from this episode, but without further ado, let’s dive into my interview with Haley Thomas./

Haley Thomas: Welcome back to The Passion Pursuit Podcast. Another episode of conversations with creatives. I am thrilled to have my friend and fellow creative Jade on the podcast today. Jade is a business and productivity coach and also hosts her own podcast called The Business Minimalist, which you all will be sure to check out.

She is a true wizard when it comes to creating with simplicity and efficiency. And we connected, I want to say a few years back if I’m remembering correctly on the timeline, yeah, about two years ago. It’s so crazy. I feel like time has been flying, but I am truly so excited to have her on the show today.

So without further ado, welcome Jade. I’m so, so grateful that you’re here.

Jade Boyd: Thank you so much for having me. It’s good to catch up with you and see you again and have this conversation. I’m really looking forward to it.

Haley Thomas: Me too. We were already, I feel like, starting to get ahead of ourselves before we even hit record and I’m like, okay, we got to get this started because this is going to be so good. But first I’d love to just kind of pass the mic to you if you want to share a little bit about your journey and what led you to this moment today.

Jade Boyd: Yeah. So like anybody who gives their story of how they got into business, it’s not traditional and everybody has such a unique story, which is why I love this part of listening to other people’s podcasts, because everyone has such a unique journey into where they were going in business. And my story is no different. It’s very random. So I actually was working a full time job. I went to school for business and then afterwards took a job in student affairs and higher education was applying for master’s programs and student affairs and higher education thought that’s what I wanted to do.

Realized that was not what I wanted to do. Started applying for grad schools, thinking that I wanted to be a lawyer and go to law school. That is not what ended up happening. And ultimately, when I got accepted to a number of law school programs and took two years, like, in that process of applying and taking the LSAT and figuring out the right timing for enrollment and all of that stuff, it was like the spring Of the semester where I had to make a decision If I’m going to school in the fall, then I have like three weeks left to pick what school I’m going to go to. And at the last minute, I decided to apply for a joint JD MBA and get two grad school degrees in four years, instead of doing three years of law school and two years of an MBA. And then applying for an MBA program, it was such a different experience.

I’ve always loved business and had like this aha moment where it’s like, why am I trying to force myself into something that is clearly not within my skill set? I’m so glad I didn’t end up going to law school because my memory is garbage, which is why I’m so organized. And I think I would have really struggled as a lawyer who needed to cite, like, case law and reference textbooks and all those things as my job, I think I would have hated it, but business has always been something that’s clicked with me. It’s something that I’ve been naturally interested in.

So I’m going to try and make this long story short, ended up going to a full time MBA program, did that for two years, halfway through my MBA program you do an internship in the summer in between your first and your second year. I was lucky enough to get placed as a business consultant. I thought at the time that I wanted to be a business consultant, which it’s funny looking back now that I’m a business coach seeing like, oh, that passion for advising and consulting was always there.

But I had a really unique placement at Grand Canyon National Park, which was kind of an elite program. I was the only Non Ivy league student. I’m like the only state school student in part of this internship program. And so had a lot of imposter syndrome around that, but got placed at Grand Canyon national park with one other consultant for my summer internship and just had this transformative experience realizing that holy crap, this type of job and career is possible for me. Like I love what I’m doing. It’s filling me with purpose. I have like great work life balance. We had no wifi at our house and in the South Rim. We lived there for 10 weeks. And so I had to drive to Starbucks, which was 20 minutes away If I wanted to check my email. Or, you know, do anything personal on the internet outside of working hours. And so we had so much free time and I felt so relaxed and not stressed. And again, had this moment of like, I thought that work had to be hard and that my career afterwards was going to be going back to a cubicle and during that summer, just with the amount of solitude and silence, I had to reflect on my life and where I was going, decided that I was going to start my own business that after grad school, I was not going to choose the default corporate career that all of my classmates were looking into, or even the default business consulting career that was laid before me if I wanted to do business consulting. And that was again, like a really high clarity moment for me in terms of decisions, but then finished out grad school, had a laundry list of business ideas and ultimately decided I’m going to start with photography because it’s the easiest.

Like I have this list of ideas, which one can I start making money with as soon as possible? And that was 2019. So as we all know, the next year did not look great in terms of in person services. I also got engaged and married that year. So plus school engaged, married, started a business. COVID happens all within like 10 months.

So it was an insane year. I was a brand photographer, ultimately again, just kept being pulled back to the business side of things and realized that I, I loved working with entrepreneurs best. I tried everything, weddings, families, newborns, the gamut of photography and ultimately realized I love business. And so started niching down, working with entrepreneurs, built a brand photography business. And then I hit my first 10 K month as a brand photographer and had another moment of realization that I had built a business that I hated, not because I was overworked or like too stressed or, like not making enough money, but because I wasn’t passionate about what I was doing, I was so much more passionate about the business and the backend than I was about photography.

So anytime a new client booked me, I almost had the sinking feeling of like, ugh, another client, which is not where you want to be as a business owner. So that led me to explore like, okay, what am I actually good at? If I’m going to build a business that’s sustainable, I know this is not it, even if it’s profitable.

So made a hard pivot into business coaching. And over the last few years have built a business and productivity coaching business, focusing on actually getting to do the things that I really like. And it’s so funny because I feel like I have steered. away from the things that I’m passionate about.

Almost in an analytical perspective, I’m very analytical and like tried to do what makes sense and telling my story, like you can see all the dots, right? I’m like, hey, why didn’t you stick to what you knew you were good at and like doing, but I’ve done it again and again and again. So for anybody listening, I know that your listeners are like pursuing their passion and trying to figure out what their purpose is. And I think it’s so important to be self reflective and even see like the decisions that you’ve made in the past and what your own patterns are. And whenever I tell my story, it’s like an aha moment for me and a good reminder, because if I don’t recognize that pattern, I keep doing it to myself because I will, by default choose the quote unquote answer that makes sense, Not necessarily the one that feels most aligned.

So very long story about how I got to where I am today as a business and productivity coach, I coach service providers who want to scale their business. So wanting to make more money, but also not wanting to work traditional 40 hour work weeks, wanting to have like extreme work life balance and a lot of time freedom.

I coach them to grow their profit and increase their profitability without investing more time into their business. And then my husband and I live in Iowa city. We have been here since we got married, DIY home renovating, and we’re expecting our first in eight weeks, which has been, a crazy journey into motherhood and something that we’re really excited for, but again, brings up a bunch of decisions, like not only decisions about the practical things like healthcare and birth and, you know, all the decisions that come with getting pregnant, but also decisions about what comes next.

So like you said, we kind of already started getting into this before the episode, but something that I’ve been processing a lot recently is how do I make decisions and find clarity? And I think that’s just been a theme throughout my whole story. So really excited to dig into that with you today.

Haley Thomas: Oh my goodness, Jade. I, first of all, love hearing your journey because like you said, hindsight’s 2020 when we look back and we’re like, of course, this makes sense. Of course, these were like the little breadcrumbs, right? Leading you to where you were always meant to be. But I think so many can relate to that of, making decisions based off of, well, logically I should do this rather than maybe there’s that like internal ping, that passion, that like fire that’s pointing you in a direction that at the time may make zero sense, but it’s hard to listen to that.

It’s hard to trust that. And it’s easier to go in the, in the space where you’re like, well, I should start here. Like this, this just makes the most sense. So I love that it’s come full circle. And what I heard too, in the theme of what you shared within your story is there were those moments of stillness where you had that space, that solitude, that space to reflect.

And I always say when it comes to starting something, one of the most important things that you can do is give yourself that space to build the self awareness because the answers are there. You know, a lot of people will come to me and they’ll be like, I don’t know. I just don’t feel like I have the clarity. I don’t know what I want. And I’m like, I think you do, but when was the last time you really gave yourself that space to reflect, to ask yourself those questions, to really sit with what is it that I truly desire? Not what do I feel I should do or should create or should move into. And so. What a beautiful journey, right?

One that’s not linear, it never is, but what a beautiful journey that really brought you back to who you are, what you love, what lights you up the most, and now building from that place. And so I’m curious for you, obviously we’re talking a little bit today about clarity, when you’re spinning in that indecision.

And that a lot of times happens when we’re in transition or when we know it’s time to shift, right? And so I hear for you, when you were a photographer, for example, you could tell like, this isn’t right. I should probably be excited when I have a new client inquiry coming in and I’m feeling this feeling of dread, like, that’s, something’s not right here, something’s not adding up. And so for you, did you feel that in that moment, that was like an aha, like, okay, something’s got to change? Or did you try to fight it a little bit more and try to stick with it? Cause you felt you had to.

Jade Boyd: Oh, I fought it so hard. And I like to say that there’s two types of clarity. One of them, I call a Grand Canyon clarity, which is like, we all have those moments, every blue moon, they don’t come very often where you have that instant clarity where wow, this is what I’m meant to be doing, or this is what I need to do next. And at the Grand Canyon, I had that experience. It was literally one moment that I can visually remember exactly where I was at and the conversation that I was having with my co consultant as we were hiking out of the Grand Canyon, the sun was rising, like very picturesque. And that is when, like. Of course, it was the accumulation of reflecting over an entire summer, but it was one moment of clarity where if this is possible for me, then I’m going to pursue it no matter what I’m not going to go back and follow the cookie cutter corporate career after I graduate.

But again, that doesn’t happen for everybody. And even for those that it happens to, it might happen a handful of times in your entire life. But the second, the second type of clarity is what I like to call coaching clarity for me, because pivoting from photography to coaching was a very, very gradual process.

I remember messaging my business coach at the time, she was also a brand photographer, so she was coaching me how to build a brand photography business. And I messaged her in tears so many times saying, should I be doing this? Like, I feel like I’m not cut out to be a photographer or this should be easier by now.

Or even though I’m getting more comfortable with photography skills, I’m still dreading and like not sleeping well before every single session. Like this can’t be right. Right? And so I had so many conversations like that with my coach, with other business owners who I trusted with my husband who, like, thank God for him, He is so patient with me. I feel like husbands of entrepreneurs are just special types of people because we had the same conversation over and over and over again. And so I fought it really hard because again, it didn’t make sense. Every single month, my business was growing, I was getting more clients, my clients were really happy with the photos that they were getting. I was getting better as a photographer. On paper, everything looked like it was going well. And I fought it so hard because I didn’t know what was next. If I stopped doing photography, then It’s a huge step back. Obviously, I’m not going to make the same income or have the same number of clients if I pivot overnight. Right?

And so for me, it took many intentional conversations and then resulted in one very potent conversation with a friend of mine, who’s a coach. She’s a strengths coach. And we just had a very simple conversation over coffee of looking at my strengths report and what I’m good at. And noticing like, oh, all of the things that I’m really good at, and I really like doing, do not line up with photography. Like, yes, I’m using my skill of discipline to be consistent or like my strength of discipline, but it’s not really necessary for photography. Like there’s scheduled things and you show up, right? Like I’m not using discipline in a way that I do as a productivity coach to create structure and routines, which is something I could do all day and not get drained by it. Right?

And so she really pushed me in that conversation of like, Jade, you can’t keep doing what you’re doing and not aligning your business to what you’re naturally good at and expect something to change. And that’s when I had the moment. And for me, I was lucky enough to have Like the privilege, honestly, to quit overnight and then build my business from the ground up.

So literally, I think we had that conversation in November. I thought about it over the holidays. And by January, I decided I’m not taking on any new photography clients. I’m pivoting. I’m going to start saying yes to more of these coaching projects, which naturally along the way also other business owners were asking me to do things like marketing strategies or to help them set up their systems or to help them create their strategic plan, just because I was sharing about what I was already doing for my own business behind the scenes. And my target market at that time was business owners, even though I was a photographer. And so I was becoming known in that space anyway, and people were naturally asking me for help.

And so, again, I didn’t have like a service or a workflow or anything that I was selling. I was just overnight saying like, I’m just going to start saying yes to the things that actually sound exciting to me, to the projects and clients that helped me align my business to what actually feels good. And I quit taking non photography clients and started referring all new inquiries to other brand photographers in the area.

And so when you say, did you fight it? I did fight it for a long time, but then once that clarity came, it was actually a lot easier than I thought to make the decision. And the thing about making decisions is that all of that agonizing and the worry comes when you’re still thinking about it. But as soon as I made the decision, there’s like, all of that goes away.

Once you have a path forward and you’re committed to doing something, even if it’s hard, at least for in my own experience, it gets so much easier after you just make the decision. And I think a lot of, a lot of people, myself included, will just let themselves hang in that limbo of waiting to make the decision and thinking that they’re going to get that Grand Canyon type of clarity eventually if they just think about it longer and longer.

But ultimately I found that clarity often comes after you make the decision and then making small pivots after that, if it’s not the 100 percent correct decision, there’s still adjustments that needed to be made after I made that decision. But overall I had so much peace, even though life got harder and business definitely got harder.

Again, I felt like I was starting from the ground up in many ways, even though I wasn’t, it definitely felt like that. it just gets easier once you commit to a decision.

Haley Thomas: I love that you speak to this from with the shift, right? And making this decision. And it’s one thing to make a decision away from something that’s really terrible, right? Like, and, and I don’t say it’s always easy. Let me, let me definitely preface this, but like leaving a job that’s like sucking your soul, you know, with every ounce is not for you. Maybe you’re not even getting paid well, like there’s like the laundry list of the cons is far outweighing the pros. But when you talk about your journey as a photographer, things were actually in the business sense and on paper looking up, things were growing, things were progressing.

You had built something that was scaling. And at this point it can be very hard I feel like to release something that’s actually going very well when you know that it’s not meant for you. And we don’t talk about that. Like the shift of knowing, even if it’s a good thing, It doesn’t necessarily mean it is your thing and that you have to stick with it.

And so for you, did you ever find like this, maybe there was a sense of, maybe it was guilt. Maybe it was like questioning of like, why can’t I, you know, I always say to Brian, my husband, I’m like, sometimes I wish I could just like the easier path, or I wish my dreams were smaller. Why do I have to want these like big things or want to change or want to, you know, but it’s hard to, you can’t, you can’t unsee it once you know what you want.

And so for you, like with that, like, did any of those emotions come up of like, maybe I should just stick with this?

Jade Boyd: Oh, for sure. And I think that that guilt is so real, but also at some point it becomes unbearable if you’re living your life like that, right? Everybody has their tipping point or that moment where it becomes too much and they realize that they can’t go on like that.

And this is maybe the way that I’m talking about this a little bit over exaggerating how like stressful this decision was for me, it was a big decision, but it wasn’t a life or death scenario, right? For many people, they’re in much worse positions when they get to that point where it’s like, I cannot live like this anymore.

And for me, it wasn’t that serious, but I do think that everyone gets to that point where even if you feel guilty for making a different decision, the pros outweigh the cons because the cons are so heavy that you can’t carry them anymore.

Haley Thomas: Yeah, and I like to what you said of like when you make the decision everything else seems to even at that moment you instantly feel lighter, because you know, and I think we often wait to have clarity hit us in the face when sometimes that clarity is not coming until you take that first step and it doesn’t mean it has to be big, it may just simply mean like you, decide to look into something for the first time or research information or have a conversation with a friend.

Like your conversation with that fellow coach led you to that clarity, but had you kept that inside, had you been trying to process or been in that waiting game on your own, that may not have even happened. So it’s like, sometimes we just need to take that tiny, tiny little step to make all the difference in that clarity, actually finding us versus us trying to find it.

Jade Boyd: Yeah, and I love that you pointed it out earlier, the importance of self awareness. And I think that it’s important to make space for that in the traditional sense where you set time aside, where you are like journaling through or thinking through questions where you know that you have a big decision, and you’re making the space to process that. But I also think that there’s this level of self awareness that just can’t be scheduled into your calendar once a month or once a week, there’s a level of just like slowing down and noticing the small things in your life too, that gives you a lot of clarity.

And right now, like I said, going into. Like first time mom life and not knowing what that’s going to look like for me. I know that after I come back from maternity leave, I’m going to move down to a two day work week. That’s my goal. And so right now, the quarter I’m in before my due date, I’m moving down to a three day work week.

And that has stretched me in different ways and gradually made me prioritize and say no to more and more things in my business, but it’s also brought a lot of awareness for me, like how I’m spending my time outside of business and the things that are helping me actually feel successful. And that time and space just in your regular, everyday rhythm where you’re not multitasking and like listening to a business podcast while you’re doing the dishes and the laundry and like never allowing yourself to be bored or think about your life or think about like what you enjoy or don’t enjoy.

That like daily self awareness I found has been so much valuable, especially when we’re talking about clarity coming over time. Again, you can’t just like sit down and make a decision and be like, if I think about this for four hours in a hotel room and like lock the door, then I’m going to get clarity.

It usually does not happen like that. It’s not something that you can rush, unfortunately. Like we all like to think that if I just make a plan and sit down and do it, like I can control the outcome, but clarity, frustratingly enough, just doesn’t happen like that. And I found that. When I am in seasons of busyness, especially as a business owner, it’s impossible for me to actually take the time to reflect like, did I actually like working with that client or was it off the target somehow? Could I have done better? Like when I’m moving from thing to thing to thing, those moments of reflection don’t naturally happen. And if they do happen, they don’t happen in like the deep, meaningful way that they need to happen in order to like really get to the root of how your life is going, how your business is going, how you’re processing things in a way that gives you clarity over time, because of course we all have those like, oh crap moments where something goes terribly wrong and we’re forced to think more about those questions, but I think it’s easier to make decisions when you’re constantly keeping an eye on things rather than checking in really infrequently.

Haley Thomas: And I think, too, like you had mentioned, we as creatives often don’t take the time to stop, to pause, to reflect, and it’s needed. Like, I speak a lot about building a business off of what you value, what you really align with, what you believe in and stand for.

And when I say that, you know, I speak to it of like, what are your values in this season? And inside of business and also outside of business, because we oftentimes are creating something to support the life that we want to live outside of the work that we do. And so it’s, it’s taking a moment to see, okay, is what I’m actively doing day to day in support of what I value and what is most important to me in my life right now. And if not, can we pause? Can we shift? And sometimes it’s a very small tweak that makes all the difference, but the problem is we don’t take the time to pause, to realign, and to take the moment to reflect until we are so far in it, we’ve dug ourselves a bigger hole and now it’s harder to get back out of it because we didn’t just take that time to pause.

And I always say this is a continuous effort, right? Like you don’t just align once, you don’t just say, okay, this is what I value forever. Like, you know, things change. And especially, I’m sure you can relate to this in this new season where you are about to step into motherhood. That’s one of the most beautiful and biggest transitions of all time that you can possibly have.

And of course, adding in a business and being a business owner on top of that means there’s a lot of different things that will shift that will change. And so for you, like, have you noticed, even in this last year, as you’re preparing, Have you spent more time in that pause to really ask, okay, what is this going to look like leading up to it? What is it going to look like for maternity leave after I’m curious to know what your process has been in this, in this new season?

Jade Boyd: Yeah. So obviously it’s something that I’m thinking about, but. I have just accepted that I’m not going to know until I know. I can imagine how I’m going to feel after having a child. I can imagine what my life or my schedule might look like, how I’ll feel about business and what I might want to change afterwards, but ultimately I’m not going to know that until I’m in it. And one of the best pieces of advice that I’ve been given during pregnancy is to not make any major life or business decisions while you’re pregnant or six months postpartum and that has given me a lot of freedom actually, because I don’t want to make any drastic decisions right now, not knowing what life is going to look like on the other side of things before I’m able to get enough experience and reflect on those changes in order to make a decision that’s better aligned.

And also just give myself the grace of not. spinning in indecision and again, agonizing over what might change or what could happen or what I might feel like or what type of mom I might become or might not become. That’s a heavy weight to carry. And so for this season, at least, of course I’m thinking about it and planning for after maternity leave. Again, I have decided that I want to come back two days a week. And right now that’s kind of my default, whatever I can do in two days a week, I know I’ll be able to serve my current clients and like the services that I’m offering right now are aligned to that type of schedule.

And I’m gradually moving my work hours down and automating and delegating and deleting more things so that I know that that transition is going to be easier. But if I come back and I want to work four days a week or one day a week. I won’t know that until afterwards. And so knowing when to make decisions is also really important, and I know that right now is not the right time to make that decision. So I could spin about it. And I do frequently have conversations with Caleb, my husband, like what might happen, right? It’s hard to not go there, but I try not to dwell in that. And I try not to over plan. I love planning and organizing, but I think that you can waste a lot of time in that space when you’re not actually taking action.

And right now there’s nothing that I can do until I have the baby and life changes and I know how I want to move forward. So that’s kind of how I’ve been processing it in this season. Waiting is really, really hard. I mean, as entrepreneurs, we’re used to moving really quickly and making decisions and having control over those decisions that are made. Right? Right now I’m on a committee at my church with a huge group of people who are trying to make decisions and is the most frustrating thing. It’s so slow when that many people are in the room and decisions are slow. Like it kills me in some ways, but as a business owner who loves moving quickly and you can decide something today and implement it tomorrow, making yourself wait and saying this is not the right time to make a decision, even though I really want to, that is a special type of discipline and takes a certain amount of like self awareness too.

Haley Thomas: I think it’s so beautiful and I always believe like the things that you’re navigating are absolutely for you and for your growth professionally and personally as well. But what I hear too is like the season of waiting is like this reminder that yeah, we can’t plan everything. And what a beautiful lesson that is also to bring into the business side because I know a lot of people won’t even start something without this full blown plan and sometimes the things that you’re planning are not even close to what will unfold or it could actually be even better than what you’re planning, but if we get so wrapped up in spending the time of only ever doing the planning, but not taking the implementation or not being too sometimes patient in the process where there is time to wait.

And time to reflect and that slow season as well. It’s like those seasons are absolutely for you and for your growth too So I love the the correlation because I see that absolutely for stepping into motherhood but I see that that how that can also be of a benefit to a business owner as well who’s in that stage of okay, like is it time to pause and reflect? Is it time to plan and see what I can do? Am I over planning though? Do I actually need to take action? So kind of figuring out, okay, what season am I in, in this moment? And I so hear that for you.

Jade Boyd: And self awareness solves so many of those problems, right? Like all of the things you just mentioned, if you’re aware of how you’re acting and reacting and how you’re thinking and reflecting on those patterns, like all of those things are pretty easy to recognize if you’re paying attention.

And if you can’t identify why you’re struggling to make a decision or why you’re not taking action, you might stay in that default status for a really long time when all it takes is noticing what’s happening so that you can actually do something that moves you out of that pattern and solves like the root issue, not just why am I not making this decision? Making the decision must be the solution. No, no, no. It’s usually a little bit deeper than that. And related to something like fear or having that all or nothing mentality that you just brought up and thinking about and processing through those things are going to be what actually moves you into action and moves you into a more productive state or a more productive decision making process. But, yeah, I love how this is all coming back to self awareness because I’m a huge fan of like intentional living and slow living and white space and, I think the power of that is really underestimated.

And I think that self care, especially these days, we think of bubble baths and like shopping habits and stuff like that. That’s like fake self care when creating space and doing less and just having margin solves so many problems that would not be created had we not packed our schedules this full where we can’t even think.

Haley Thomas: Even too of what you mentioned this with your story as well, like the self awareness to have a better understanding of who you are and what are your strengths and what can you lean into rather than trying to step into a box that’s not feeling like it fits you or step into this mold.

It’s like, no, no. Like, what if you had the opportunity to really understand how you best operate? What lights you up to talk about, you know, kind of finding that those pieces about yourself to move forward with. And I think we’re taught so often in our society to look at what we’re lacking and to learn all these different things, rather than how can we lean into the strengths, the gifts, the things that are within you that you already have that make you who you are and help you bring your magic out into the world.

And so it’s like the self awareness to not only know, like when it’s the right time to pause or to take action or reflect, but also to have a better understanding of what you need to support yourself and also how you best operate as you create whatever it is that you’re building.

Jade Boyd: Yeah, I often say you have to know what you’re saying yes to before you know what you should say no to and what you just said fits perfectly into that. Like you have to know yourself and what you want to say yes to and what feels good to you before you can start decluttering almost your schedule or your responsibilities or services in your business or clients that you don’t like. Like whatever that is, you have to know what you’re saying yes to first.

And I mean, I’m a business minimalist, like the name of my podcast says. So I’m all about saying no to things and making space. But when we think about decluttering or making space, that’s the first thing people jump to. What am I going to say no to? Like, no, no, no, that will come later. First, you have to figure out what do you want to say yes to, which in many ways is a much harder question to answer.

Haley Thomas: So good. I’m curious as we kind of close our conversation, you know, we’re talking a lot about making decisions, right? And talking a lot about what happens when you’re in a shift or you’re pivoting. And so for someone who knows that it’s time, whether that be, maybe they’re entering entrepreneurship for the first time, or maybe they’re shifting within their current business into something that’s more aligned with what they really desire to build and create.

Where should they start? What would be the first, even if it’s a baby step, where would you point them in the direction of, okay, like where, yeah, where would we start?

Jade Boyd: Yeah. So I think there’s two types of people. One of them might be the person who needs to burn it all to the ground and like start over fresh and build something from the ground up, which is totally valid. And there are certain seasons of life in business where that makes sense. And for certain situations that might make the most sense. Like I said, with photography, it was a very cold turkey pivot for me. And I was privileged to be in that space where I could make a hard pivot and start from the ground up.

But for most people, that is not the case. And for most people, what makes more sense is that gradual transition and starting with very small steps and experimenting, especially if you’re not a thousand percent sure where you’re headed or don’t have complete clarity about what that pivot is going to look like or what you wholly want your business to look like something has to change, that’s when small steps in the right direction become so much more important

So I would definitely say start with self awareness, start with figuring out what do you want? And then the second question is, what is the smallest step that you can take in that direction to experiment, to prototype, to do something that’s low risk, just to try it. And then again, self awareness, see how that feels. Because oftentimes what we think we want is not actually all that it’s cut out to be once we get it.

And so starting with small experiments for most people, Is going to be the best path forward when it comes to making decisions. But again, you have to know yourself. And I don’t want to say that burning everything to the ground and starting over, isn’t the best solution for some people because it might be, but for 90 percent of people, I would imagine that prototyping and experimenting is going to be a much healthier path.

Haley Thomas: I love the word experiment because I feel like everyone is so in this all or nothing mentality that they have to immediately make a decision and jump into the deepest end and like that’s going to be the end all be all. That’s now your chosen path and you’re stuck with it forever. It’s like it puts so much pressure on decisions when oftentimes decisions are Not that serious.

And I don’t say that to mean like they’re not taken seriously, but in terms of you have the ability also to shift, you can still change your mind. Nothing is written in stone. You did not sign your life away to do this one thing or create this offer and stick with it. Like you have the permission to evolve, to change, to decide that that’s no longer working for you just as you are actively deciding to make the shift in the first place.

And so I love the term experiment it takes the pressure off of it having to be the answer and giving yourself that permission to explore it. Like you said, you may get into it and realize, wait a second, this is not what I thought it was going to be. And have to shift again and that’s okay, like that’s I think, when we, when we’re going through life, when we’re going through business and building, it’s like, this is the beautiful spot to be in if we allow it to be where we get the space to explore and to try things on and see how they feel.

And if they don’t, we can take them back off, but give yourself that permission to, to explore and to try. Love that.

Jade Boyd: And everybody is in that. I don’t think that’s a state of being that we ever escape from because as human beings, we love novelty. Like our brains are wired to love novelty and new things, and we’re never not going to want to do something different or new or to learn and grow and experiment.

And so learning to operate your life in a way that you are feeling fulfilled and like your path is aligned, but also giving yourself that space on a regular basis. I don’t think that ever stops. And like you said, from the outside in, we can look at people who have businesses or lives where we’re thinking they have it all figured out.

I can’t wait until I get to that place. Then everything’s going to be perfect. But that person is also experimenting and trying new things and are not perfectly happy with where they’re at. That’s not the goal here in life or business to get to the point where everything is perfect and I have no wants or needs like every day is wonderful. That’s never going to happen, but I think we trick ourselves into thinking it’s just on the other side of this next decision or this next pivot, or once this happens, then I’ll have that state of zen. But in reality, It’s kind of beautiful that we love doing different things, that we do desire to keep growing and experimenting and being creative and learning how to incorporate that into your life that doesn’t, Induce stress or create that I call it the forest of longing. For a long time, I thought I was an Enneagram four, and that was a term that came up with Enneagram fours is like, they’re in the forest of longing, always wondering what is the next thing that’s going to make them happy. And although I’ve discovered I’m definitely not a four, I’m an Enneagram one that has always stuck with me because I do oftentimes find myself in that state and have to continually remind myself that happiness is not on the other side of that thing. Like learning to enjoy where I’m at is so important because if I can’t enjoy where I’m at, I’m never going to enjoy where I’m going to be on the other side of that thing either.

Haley Thomas: Mm. Mic drop. I’m always like, how boring would it be if we just arrived?

Like we’re like, okay, this is it. Like what, what is the point of that? Like that, you know, the ebbs and flows, the duality of the great seasons and the hard seasons. Like that’s what makes life so beautiful. And can we embrace that a little bit more? So, oh my gosh, my friend. Wow. So many nuggets in this conversation.

I feel so excited to go back and listen through this episode myself, because truly, like, just to hear your own individual story and your experience and the wisdom that has come through from your journey, I mean, what a gift, right? And exactly speaking to that, the duality of both, the ebbs, the flows, the moments where you were like, I can’t do this anymore, I want to burn this to the ground. I’m creating something new and now we’re building it from the ground up. It’s like, it’s all led you to this point to be able to now share on the other side and what a gift that you’ve given to all of us today. So thank you. Oh my goodness.

Jade Boyd: Yes. Thank you. I feel like I will listen back to this myself.

Patrick Lanchetti, I think is how you say his name. He has this great quote that says we need to be reminded more than we need to be instructed. And I find that for myself too, like we know these things, right? And people listening to this, they’re probably like, I know this, but we do have to tell ourselves over and over again to make it stick. So thank you so much for having me. This is fun.

Haley Thomas: Yes. Well, where can we find you if people want to connect with you? I will make sure to link things, but yeah, if we want to send you a DM, where can everybody connect with you?

Jade Boyd: Yeah. So the best place to get the best of the best of my content would be to follow the podcast, The Business Minimalist Podcast. If you want more content like this episode, and then everything else is at www.jadeboyd.co is my website where you can find more information about working with me and free resources for business owners who want to do less, but better.

Haley Thomas: So good. Oh my goodness my friend, thank you again for being here. I’m so, so looking forward to this episode coming out into the world, so thank you.

Jade Boyd: Thanks so much for having me.